[HCoop-Discuss] [docelic, ntk] Cracking down on negative balances

[Nathan Kennedy]

John T. Settino wrote:
> j.c.hallgren at juno.com wrote:
>   
>> I'm more than willing to pay when needed, and I'm not that hard to 
>> contact either, so the chances of not being able to collect from me is 
>> pretty slim, (unless I'm incapicitated), thus having to keep $25+ 
>> total, while not a real hardship, isn't my ideal desire either.
>>     
> I pretty much agree with him on this one. I generally end up going 
> negative then paying it because I was always taught growing up to pay my 
> bills "as they came in," not keep a balance ahead of time. 
One problem is that a lot of the confusion is coming from nomenclature.  
You can do the exact same thing and frame in any number of ways.  A lot 
of people have a problem with a keeping a "balance" but not with a 
"deposit" even if they are implemented the same way and have the same 
meaning.

One thing I have proposed for some time that I am sure we will do 
eventually is having fixed monthly payments (subject to adjustment, of 
course), rather than billing small amounts that vary stochastically 
based on membership and exact bills and periodically billing out large 
fixed expenses.

The long-term expenses for members would be the same, but you will have 
a more familiar experience of "paying a bill each month as it comes due."
> As a member 
> since 2003, I've never really liked the idea of balances and shares but 
> this is how our coop is run and my sole opinion doesn't hold a lot of 
> clout. I've already been told on other issues that I should leave the 
> coop if I don't like the changes being made, but it is not my desire to 
> do so. Certain conversations about certain issues, I've received 
> responses and replies from a board member that made me feel, "I don't 
> care what you think and it doesn't matter whether you like it or not. If 
> you don't, leave, we won't care." Makes me feel welcome.
>   
This is a separate issue, perhaps when I have more time I will go back 
over the archives and try to see where this has been going on and how we 
can have more constructive dialogs in the future.  If I was that board 
member then feel free to send me an email.

I have said that it would not be fair to allow individual dissenting 
members to opt out of paying for individual expenses that they disagree 
with and then in turn benefit from those decisions that are made, but I 
hope that this doesn't convey that expressing disagreement (or using the 
HCoop democratic process to change, reverse, or avoid these decisions) 
is unwelcome or that dissenters should just leave.
> I digress. Now, my understanding is policy is changing in such a way 
> that if I don't keep this larger balance, if I go under this for a month 
> or two, I can have my account frozen with seemingly with no warning 
> because I'm supposed to "know" what my balance is ahead of time. I'm not 
> okay with that.
There is no change with respect to the notice you get under the new system.
> I rarely get on my computer,
Are you suggesting that we offer paper bills?  I mean we could do this, 
but we'd have to charge for it (I don't think anyone wants to subsidize 
dead trees) and I find it hard to imagine that anyone would pay an extra 
$0.50 a month or so to get a bill in the mail.
> I rarely check the portal 
> or my balance and the only time I realize it's low is when I receive an 
> "your balance is low" email. I have other, more important things to 
> think about. It's easier for me to get low balance warnings and make a 
> payment than all of the sudden my stuff stops working. Perhaps there 
> could be an option in the portal to have an email sent to you every 
> month when there has been a withdrawal from your balance, how much, and 
> your remaining balance. To be honest I rarely think about how much money 
> is in my hcoop account until it's low.
>   
Having an option for a monthly statement whether your balance is low or 
not is a great idea.  I suggest that you put that in bugzilla as a 
feature request.

But I don't see how enforcing deposits, which has always been an option 
in the by-laws, and preventing members from having to foot bad debts, 
creates the problem you see of notice coming in the form of only getting 
locked out.  You'll still get the same advance notice that you got 
before, prior to your service being suspended and certain prior to being 
kicked out for nonpayment.
> I'm sure the majority disagree with me on what I've said but I'm 
> including my thoughts in this discussion. By the way, my balance, all of 
> the sudden, is negative. I have to choose between gas in my car for a 
> week or webhosting for a month. Makes sense, right? I'm glad we were 
> notified before this took place.
>   
Again this is an unfortunate instance of nomenclature and perception.  
Your financial standing with HCoop is absolutely no different now then 
before Adam put this into place.  You will notice that on the Financial 
page on the portal, there is now a "Deposit" entry.  If you add that to 
your balance now you will have the same amount of money refundable to 
you that you did before.

Nobody is going to have their service suspended or to get kicked out 
while the new system is being implemented under a situation where they 
would not have before.

-ntk