[Oct. 17 Seattle] On the route
Eric Gordan
ejrd1993 at hotmail.com
Sat Aug 22 12:36:06 EDT 2009
I'm fine with what is being suggested: skip 12th, since it doesn't gain us much but it adds distance; skip the detour through the projects; go to Jackson instead of Yessler, since that does gain us more of the ID; and ending at Westlake (Edward didn't weigh in on it, I'd like to hear what he and others think). Without the other detours, ending at Westlake seems fine to me. That lets us pass a couple of blocks past the Market, which Anton and I agreed was a good detour to take, and which now Frank has also supported as well.
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 15:48:49 +0000
From: chr2eemail at comcast.net
To: antiwar at lists.hcoop.net
Subject: Re: [Oct. 17 Seattle] On the route
I favor Jackson because of the good responses we've recently been getting in the International District, plus Yesler will have many fewer people on it during the stretch that's raised for the freeway, etc. It also gives the march a clear/comprehensible goal as far as to why we're going in this direction.
For these reasons I think it's worth the extra 15 minutes, or so.--Fk.
----- Original Message -----
From: iskra at riseup.net
To: antiwar at lists.hcoop.net
Sent: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 03:27:09 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [Oct. 17 Seattle] On the route
All,
1. I agree with not trying to cram too much into one march (re: Ben's
suggestion), although Broadway is an excellent place to march. I am
also against going in circles or zigzagging all over the place. I
didn't see any real advantage to looping up to 12th. If we want to
march on 12th AND go through Yesler Terrace (the previously mentioned
projects), then we will have to march up a fairly steep slope for 2-3
blocks, plus the 2 blocks up Pike or Pine. I think this is way too much
work and complication for way too little.
2. Since it is apparently only a half mile difference, a relatively
straight shot (with the exception of Yesler Terrace) from SCCC to either
Jackson or Yesler would be fine with me. I would like to hear what
others had to say about this (Jackson vs. Yesler), because I can really
be swayed either way. I don't think this is a matter of major political
significance, as much as I'd like us to cover part of the International
District.
A half mile seems like more than a half mile after walking 2.5. Again,
there's no need to cram it all into one march. Of course, one way to
ease the burden would be to avoid zigzagging up hills for slightly
increased visibility for a block or so (like we had discussed on Monday
around the juvenile detention place on 12th). Both Yesler and Jackson
will be downhill. And again, I could go either way.
--Edward
chr2eemail at comcast.net wrote:
> Helen,
>
> When I said that the various choices all seemed pretty good, I think
> that my note was pretty clearly referring to choices in how to get to
> Jackson.
>
> Indeed, I think that most people in the meeting thought that there would
> be a few blocks of relative emptiness on Broadway when going past S.U.,
> Swedish, etc., so we should check out how it would be to go over to
> 12^th instead^ ---which you have now done! But at the same time there is
> only relative emptiness on this part of Broadway, and we would no doubt
> meet some hospital workers, students, and people who live in apartments
> in the area. So, to me, whatever you decide won’t be bad if it doesn‘t
> involve a lot of loops and the like.
>
> Some things related to this:
>
> I think that we’re going to want an MC---or someone tasked for the
> duty---to very briefly explain the general march route, and say that
> it’s a little longer than usual because in order to build the movement,
> going to the people is necessary. (At the same time, at the first
> meeting we recognized that some people simply can’t walk three miles,
> but that the shape of the route is such that they can jump on buses or
> otherwise take shortcuts in order to meet us at the end.)
>
> But I think that it would be a mistake to have a march route with too
> many detours designed to go to the people. Quite a few demonstrators
> might feel they’re being led in circles when they have in mind reaching
> the objective of Westlake. Compromises have to be made in this regard.
>
> For example, Ben’s (and perhaps others’) idea of first marching north on
> Broadway has merit in that it’s meant to reach more people. But it
> starts off with this problem of marching in a circle. (In this case, I
> also think that it would make the march just a little too long.) So I
> think that we should “save” north Broadway for another demonstration.
> Nevertheless, I think that it would be great if on the 17^th Ben or
> others wanted to organize a little contingent with signs, etc., to come
> down Broadway encouraging people to come with them to the demonstration.
> I might join such a contingent myself!
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Helen
>
> To: antiwar at lists.hcoop.net
>
> Sent: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 09:49:10 +0000 (UTC)
>
> Subject: Re: [Oct. 17 Seattle] On the route
>
>
>
>
>
> Frank and All:
> I am confused when you say "the various choices. . . all seem pretty
> good." Does this mean so long as it goes from SCCC to Jackson, and up
> First to Westlake? Or all three maps?
>
> The feeling on monday's walk was that it was long when we were in the
> middle of it, but as the original note said "we can of course discuss
> this further, but this was the general consensus." The discussion
> really wasn't much about feeling tired; there were practical and
> political reasons for concluding the original route might be too long
> and may disserve the action. What we kept tossing around is, what does
> this struggle need, in the current situation? So it was pretty interesting.
>
> At this point, four of us felt it was probably too long, made alternate
> suggestions, and no one of the four has voiced a clear change of
> opinion, at least in email. But when you encourage "you all doing the
> walking" to decide, you seem to be taking it for granted that we will be
> going to Jackson, and towards the market, and presumably to
> Westlake--other than that it is up to us. I could be wrong about how I
> am reading your email, not sure.
>
> I would like to hear what the others who were out on Monday think. If
> others are convinced that plan A, map 1, is it, then there is no need to
> walk again. We might easily conclude that if we go with plan A, any of
> the side routes we considered are out, or something like that.
>
> Frank, are you able to come on Thurs or Friday to walk it? I know we
> don't want to drain our energies on the route issue, but that's why
> having materials to pass out would be good also. The route s a
> significant piece of this action, so it is worth a bit of effort.
>
> --Helen
>
>
> On Aug 20, 2009, at 1:29 AM, chr2eemail at comcast.net
> wrote:
>
> Dear Alex and all,
>
> You say that the four of you didn’t consense on a shorter route,
> which is obviously fine with me. Yet all I and the rest of us had to
> go on was Helen’s report that you all “concluded that SCCC via 12th
> or Broadway to Jackson, to First, and up Pine to Westlake is too
> far,” i.e., the general route that everyone agreed on (and which has
> been advertised) is too far.
>
> In fact, most of her short note dealt with length. So it’s just
> plain logical that I would have addressed this.
>
> But, anyway, I thought that the reason for walking part of the route
> was simply to check out what would be the best way to get to
> Jackson. And I’m most willing to accept whatever you recommend on
> this, as I think others at the meeting were. (I would add that it’s
> important to remember that Yesler Terrace is likely to have many
> fewer people outside in mid-October than it does in summer days like
> this.)
>
> Insofar as making a jog over to Hing Hay Park for a speech or
> speeches, I pretty much oppose this because it might create somewhat
> of a “tour with speeches” atmosphere, rather than that of a militant
> anti-war demonstration on a mission. On the other hand, I do like
> Anton ‘s idea of going a block or two past the Market entrance
> before cutting over to Westlake---which is also what I originally
> had in mind.
>
> Ben Seattle has suggested first marching north on Broadway, which
> creates the problem of whether to return south on a not-so-busy
> street like 12^th , or just to turn around on Broadway. My opinion
> is that we can’t do everything in one demonstration; and I think
> that it’s important to remember that by October 17 the people who
> walk Broadway every day will be very aware that there’s going to be
> a demonstration. Furthermore, on demonstration day there will be
> people coming down Broadway from the north w/ signs, etc., and
> they’ll therefore be reminded again.
>
> So I think that we should keep things simple, leave it to you all
> doing the walking to decide the best way to Jackson, even if it
> involves flipping a coin. (And I don’t think that I’m being flip in
> saying this because the various choices all have their ups and
> downs, but all seem pretty good.)
>
> Frank
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Eric Gordan
>
> To: anntiwar
>
> Sent: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 06:41:47 +0000 (UTC)
>
> Subject: [Oct. 17 Seattle] On the route
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Frank –
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Since we
>
> didn’t set anything in stone, it is hard to understand why you’re
> angry. The four of us didn’t consense on a
>
> shorter route, and we didn’t consense on ending in Pioneer Square.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> After
>
> walking most of the route (stopping on First), we all felt that it
> was a pretty
>
> rigorous route, and that rather than going all the way to Westlake,
> one way to
>
> shorten it would be to end in Pioneer Square. What we agreed to was
> that if we do go all the way to Jackson,
>
> and especially if we march up to 12^th , the march could end at
>
> Pioneer Square, and we agreed that there were some advantages to that
>
> option.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> However,
>
> our minds were not primarily on the length of the march, but on
> numerous other
>
> factors. We tried to give an
>
> indication of that by saying that those of us who went out that
> night would
>
> send comments on the route options, but we fell down on doing that.
> Some particular points that the four of
>
> us discussed while we were scouting:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 1) We
>
> walked from SCCC along Pike to 12^th , and along 12^th
>
> roughly to the Juvenile Hall.
>
> Along Pike and the first part of 12th, there are several open-air cafes,
>
> but all of them are pretty upscale.
>
> There are a few condo-type residences, and again they’re pretty
>
> upscale. The whole chunk of Pike
>
> between Broadway and 12^th , and around the corner onto 12^th
>
> also, has been real gentrified since the last time I really looked
> at what was
>
> there.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 2) We
>
> discussed in depth whether there would be more people around along
> SU at the
>
> time of the march, but when we were there the other day that side of
> campus was
>
> deserted. There are several shops
>
> that are designed for the student population there, and these may be
> populated
>
> on a Saturday, which would be good.
>
> And of course, school will be in session then, so it is likely to be
>
> more populous than the other night.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 3) After
>
> passing SU by a few blocks, we cut up from 12^th to Broadway, to get
>
> a view of what was there. Marching on 12^th all the way essentially
>
> to Jackson as we originally discussed would largely bypass the
> housing project
>
> between Harborview and Yessler. It
>
> would catch one edge of it but not much more.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 4) We didn’t
>
> come to an agreement on the choice between 12^th and Broadway, but we
>
> did agree that cutting through more of Yessler Terrace is
> important. Going from memory, I think that meant
>
> cutting up Alder from 12^th , if we take that route, but it doesn’t
>
> matter much which of those streets we take. We discussed that going
> up Cherry
>
> to Broadway was an option also.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 5) We all
>
> agreed that cutting west of Broadway on the jog that Anton pointed
> out in his
>
> email was a really good thing, because it would take us through more
> of the
>
> projects.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 6) That jog
>
> would leave us at Yessler a couple of blocks west of Broadway. From
> there, we
>
> debated whether to go right, down Yessler or left, to Jackson.
> Going down Yessler to First is the
>
> shorter of the two options, and we agreed that if we took that
> option, we would
>
> certainly want to end at Westlake.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The other
>
> alternative of going down Jackson means turning left at Yessler,
> going to
>
> Boren, to 12^th , to Jackson, and is a significant addition to the
>
> route. It has some significant
>
> advantages over the Yessler option, in that it travels through more
> of the
>
> Yessler Terrace projects, through little Saigon, and through a
> significant
>
> chunk of the ID. I think we all
>
> agreed that these were important advantages. The Yessler route
> misses all of little Saigon, and most of
>
> the ID.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 7) In the
>
> ID, we discussed the option of a one-block detour through Hing Hay
> (sp?) park
>
> for a speech or two. From there,
>
> we’d travel down past the south end of the bus tunnel, and down to
> First. However, Jackson to First beyond the
>
> bus tunnel isn’t going to be great for foot traffic. Anton has
> since reported that there will be a game, but not
>
> til the evening. And First doesn’t
>
> get a lot of non-game foot-traffic until you get a few blocks
> further north
>
> (though it does have good foot traffic a few blocks south of Yessler).
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 8) If we did
>
> not go all the way to Westlake, our preferred ending point would not be
>
> Occidental Park, but at the triangular park on First where the
> pergola is.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 9) We all
>
> agreed that the route up First, and especially the march past the
> market were
>
> big advantages to going all the way to Westlake. Anton and I talked
> about even going beyond Westlake on
>
> First, so we could run alongside the market for a couple more
> blocks, and then
>
> looping back to Westlake.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The main
>
> reason we considered ending sooner than Westlake was that we wanted
> to be able
>
> to take a few detours that would lengthen the march. Twelfth is
> one, into the projects to the west of Broadway is
>
> another, Hing Hay park is a third, and we might have talked about a
> few others
>
> as well.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The
>
> longest option is:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SCCC
>
> --> Pike --> 12^th --> Cherry --> Broadway --> through
>
> Yessler Terrace --> Yessler --> Boren --> 12^th -->
>
> Jackson --> Hing Hay --> Jackson --> 1^st --> Stewart
>
> --> 4^th --> Westlake.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> That one
>
> is not outlined in any of the maps that I made and Helen sent out.
> We agreed that that one was too long,
>
> but I imagine that some of us could be convinced otherwise. But at
> this point, I am not entirely
>
> convinced by your arguments.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> We need
>
> to resolve this soon so we can start the permit process. One
> proposal is that anyone who can meets
>
> at SCCC on Thursday or Friday evening, at 6 or 6:30, with flyers in
> hand, and we walk the route again. Can you
>
> make it either of those times, Frank?
>
> What about other comrades?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I cannot
>
> do it on Friday, but I can on Thursday.
>
> If we decide to do it Thursday, probably the communication should be by
>
> phone.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Comrades,
>
>
>
>
>
> I
>
> don’t understand what is said on the maps, i.e., how is the route
> ending at
>
> Westlake only 2.5 miles, and the one ending at Pioneer Square 3.0
> miles? Then
>
> you have an alternative route to Pioneer Square that’s /longer/,
> but it’s listed as only 2.6 miles!
>
>
>
>
>
> So
>
> you must mean that the route ending at Westlake is 3.0 miles, which
> I think is
>
> just right---maybe 1 hour 45 minutes at demonstration pace. Nothing.
> We say
>
> that we want to use demonstrations take our anti-war politics to the
> people,
>
> and this does it.
>
>
>
>
>
> Some
>
> other points:
>
>
>
>
>
> I
>
> think that ending at Westlake is better because it seems to be a
> little more of
>
> a public place than Pioneer Square. Moreover, it allows us to march
> by the
>
> crowded Market entrance, etc. Also, a lot of people will hike back
> up the hill to
>
> Broadway after the event is over, and this will give us the
> opportunity to walk
>
> with them. In fact, I was thinking that it would be good to give a
> call for
>
> people to march back up the hill together during the ending rally.
>
>
>
>
>
> Besides
>
> Seattle May Days and the DNC, I could add more demonstrations that
> have been
>
> much longer than the one we all generally agreed on, i.e., /three/
> marches from the U.W. all the way
>
> downtown in 1970, or a MLK Day march that went all the way from
> Garfield High
>
> to Othello, or others. And every one of these marches was of
> thousands. But you
>
> write that: “We will have less people participating in the march
> if it is
>
> clearly too long,†when this is not /clear/ at all!
>
>
>
>
>
> Longer
>
> marches (and this one is really not that long) are a little more
> dramatic and
>
> memorable, and we want this to be a memorable event. Further, I’ve
> told some
>
> people that we wanted this to be a demonstration that was short on
>
> speech-making and long on marching, and had agreement that it should
> be. And if
>
> we continue our political mobilization I don’t think we need worry
> about
>
> turning out enough people to fill the street. Anger against Obama
> increases by
>
> the day, and we work to increase this anger. A three-mile anti-war
>
> demonstration is just the beginning.
>
>
>
>
>
> Since
>
> four people have now consensed against our original plan, I’ll add
> one last
>
> thing: How many times have we heard the cry to “keep marching!â€
> sent up
>
> when the usual coalition leaders stopped marches in order to have an
> hour of
>
> reformist speeches? Maybe it’s because I’m older, but I’ve
> heard it a
>
> lot.
>
>
>
>
>
> Sorry
>
> to go on and on, but I just don’t get this objection…can’t
> fathom it, and
>
> it makes me angry. But I’m sure we’ll work it out.
>
>
>
>
>
> Frank
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I don't
>
> agree that the original proposed route is too long. For example,
> it's about half
>
> the length of the biggest march in Denver, and much shorter than the
> May Day
>
> marches from St. Mary's, downtown, and on to Seattle Center. More,
> when you're
>
> walking in a crowd, shouting slogans and chants, etc., time flies by
> in comparison
>
> to when you're walking alone.—Fk
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----
>
> Original Message -----
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Helen
>
>
To: antiwar at lists.hcoop.net
Sent:
> Tue, 18 Aug 2009 05:44:54 +0000
>
> (UTC)
Subject: Re: [Oct. 17 Seattle] Fwd: Import your contacts and old
>
> email
Alex, Anton, Edwd and I walked variations of the proposed route
>
> tonight.
We concluded that SCCC via 12th or Broadway to Jackson, to
> First, and
>
>
up Pine to Westlake is too far.
We will have less people
> participating in the
>
> march if it is clearly
too long. People would likely decide to be
> there at the
>
> beginning
and/or the end and the actual number marching would be
> lower than we
>
>
want, possibly lower than we need to go into the street.
We can of
> course
>
> discuss this further, but this was the general
consensus amongst of
> the four
>
> of us.
Here are proposed routes. (Folks will argue pro and con in
>
subsequent
>
> emails.)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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