[Oct. 17 Seattle] On the route

Thu Aug 20 16:09:29 EDT 2009

Helen,
When I said that the various choices all seemed pretty good, I think that my note was pretty clearly referring to choices in how to get to Jackson. 

Indeed, I think that most people in the meeting thought that there would be a few blocks of relative emptiness on Broadway when going past S.U., Swedish, etc., so we should check out how it would be to go over to 12th instead ---which you have now done! But at the same time there is only relative emptiness on this part of Broadway, and we would no doubt meet some hospital workers, students, and people who live in apartments in the area. So, to me, whatever you decide won’t be bad if it doesn‘t involve a lot of loops and the like. 

Some things related to this: 
I think that we’re going to want an MC---or someone tasked for the duty---to very briefly explain the general march route, and say that it’s a little longer than usual because in order to build the movement, going to the people is necessary. (At the same time, at the first meeting we recognized that some people simply can’t walk three miles, but that the shape of the route is such that they can jump on buses or otherwise take shortcuts in order to meet us at the end.)
But I think that it would be a mistake to have a march route with too many detours designed to go to the people. Quite a few demonstrators might feel they’re being led in circles when they have in mind reaching the objective of Westlake. Compromises have to be made in this regard.
For example, Ben’s (and perhaps others’) idea of first marching north on Broadway has merit in that it’s meant to reach more people. But it starts off with this problem of marching in a circle. (In this case, I also think that it would make the march just a little too long.) So I think that we should “save” north Broadway for another demonstration. Nevertheless, I think that it would be great if on the 17th Ben or others wanted to organize a little contingent with signs, etc., to come down Broadway encouraging people to come with them to the demonstration. I might join such a contingent myself!

----- Original Message -----

From: Helen 

To: antiwar at lists.hcoop.net

Sent: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 09:49:10 +0000 (UTC)

Subject: Re: [Oct. 17 Seattle] On the route

Frank and All:
I am confused when you say "the various choices. . . all seem pretty good."  Does this mean so long as it goes from SCCC to Jackson, and up First to Westlake? Or all three maps?

The feeling  on monday's walk was that it was long when we were in the middle of it, but as the original note said "we can of course discuss this further, but this was the general consensus."  The discussion really wasn't much about feeling tired; there were practical and political reasons for concluding the original route might be too long and may disserve the action.  What we kept tossing around is, what does this struggle need, in the current situation?  So it was pretty interesting.

At this point, four of us felt it was probably too long, made alternate suggestions, and no one of the four has voiced a clear change of opinion, at least in email.  But when you encourage "you all doing the walking" to decide, you seem to be taking it for granted that we will be going to Jackson, and towards the market, and presumably to Westlake--other than that it is up to us.  I could be wrong about how I am reading your email, not sure.

I would like to hear what the others who were out on Monday think.  If others are convinced that plan A, map 1, is it, then there is no need to walk again.   We might easily conclude that if we go with plan A, any of the side routes we considered are out, or something like that.   

Frank, are you able to come on Thurs or Friday to walk it?   I know we don't want to drain our energies on the route issue, but that's why having materials to pass out would be good also.  The route s a significant piece of this action, so it is worth a bit of effort.

--Helen

On Aug 20, 2009, at 1:29 AM, chr2eemail at comcast.net wrote:

Dear Alex and all,
You say that the four of you didn’t consense on a shorter route, which is obviously fine with me. Yet all I and the rest of us had to go on was Helen’s report that you all “concluded that SCCC via 12th or Broadway to Jackson, to First, and up Pine to Westlake is too far,” i.e., the general route that everyone agreed on (and which has been advertised) is too far. 
In fact, most of her short note dealt with length. So it’s just plain logical that I would have addressed this.
But, anyway, I thought that the reason for walking part of the route was simply to check out what would be the best way to get to Jackson. And I’m most willing to accept whatever you recommend on this, as I think others at the meeting were. (I would add that it’s important to remember that Yesler Terrace is likely to have many fewer people outside in mid-October than it does in summer days like this.)
Insofar as making a jog over to Hing Hay Park for a speech or speeches, I pretty much oppose this because it might create somewhat of a “tour with speeches” atmosphere, rather than that of a militant anti-war demonstration on a mission. On the other hand, I do like Anton ‘s idea of going a block or two past the Market entrance before cutting over to Westlake---which is also what I originally had in mind.
Ben Seattle has suggested first marching north on Broadway, which creates the problem of whether to return south on a not-so-busy street like 12th, or just to turn around on Broadway. My opinion is that we can’t do everything in one demonstration; and I think that it’s important to remember that by October 17 the people who walk Broadway every day will be very aware that there’s going to be a demonstration. Furthermore, on demonstration day there will be people coming down Broadway from the north w/ signs, etc., and they’ll therefore be reminded again.
So I think that we should keep things simple, leave it to you all doing the walking to decide the best way to Jackson, even if it involves flipping a coin. (And I don’t think that I’m being flip in saying this because the various choices all have their ups and downs, but all seem pretty good.) 
Frank

----- Original Message -----

From: Eric Gordan 

To: anntiwar 

Sent: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 06:41:47 +0000 (UTC)

Subject: [Oct. 17 Seattle] On the route

Frank –

Since we

didn’t set anything in stone, it is hard to understand why you’re angry.  The four of us didn’t consense on a

shorter route, and we didn’t consense on ending in Pioneer Square.  

After

walking most of the route (stopping on First), we all felt that it was a pretty

rigorous route, and that rather than going all the way to Westlake, one way to

shorten it would be to end in Pioneer Square.  What we agreed to was that if we do go all the way to Jackson,

and especially if we march up to 12th, the march could end at

Pioneer Square, and we agreed that there were some advantages to that

option.  

However,

our minds were not primarily on the length of the march, but on numerous other

factors.  We tried to give an

indication of that by saying that those of us who went out that night would

send comments on the route options, but we fell down on doing that.  Some particular points that the four of

us discussed while we were scouting:

1) We

walked from SCCC along Pike to 12th, and along 12th

roughly to the Juvenile Hall. 

Along Pike and the first part of 12th, there are several open-air cafes,

but all of them are pretty upscale. 

There are a few condo-type residences, and again they’re pretty

upscale.  The whole chunk of Pike

between Broadway and 12th, and around the corner onto 12th

also, has been real gentrified since the last time I really looked at what was

there.  

2) We

discussed in depth whether there would be more people around along SU at the

time of the march, but when we were there the other day that side of campus was

deserted.  There are several shops

that are designed for the student population there, and these may be populated

on a Saturday, which would be good. 

And of course, school will be in session then, so it is likely to be

more populous than the other night.

3) After

passing SU by a few blocks, we cut up from 12th to Broadway, to get

a view of what was there. Marching on 12th all the way essentially

to Jackson as we originally discussed would largely bypass the housing project

between Harborview and Yessler.  It

would catch one edge of it but not much more.

4) We didn’t

come to an agreement on the choice between 12th and Broadway, but we

did agree that cutting through more of Yessler Terrace is important.  Going from memory, I think that meant

cutting up Alder from 12th, if we take that route, but it doesn’t

matter much which of those streets we take. We discussed that going up Cherry

to Broadway was an option also.

5) We all

agreed that cutting west of Broadway on the jog that Anton pointed out in his

email was a really good thing, because it would take us through more of the

projects.  

6) That jog

would leave us at Yessler a couple of blocks west of Broadway. From there, we

debated whether to go right, down Yessler or left, to Jackson.  Going down Yessler to First is the

shorter of the two options, and we agreed that if we took that option, we would

certainly want to end at Westlake.

The other

alternative of going down Jackson means turning left at Yessler, going to

Boren, to 12th, to Jackson, and is a significant addition to the

route.  It has some significant

advantages over the Yessler option, in that it travels through more of the

Yessler Terrace projects, through little Saigon, and through a significant

chunk of the ID.  I think we all

agreed that these were important advantages.  The Yessler route misses all of little Saigon, and most of

the ID.

7) In the

ID, we discussed the option of a one-block detour through Hing Hay (sp?) park

for a speech or two.  From there,

we’d travel down past the south end of the bus tunnel, and down to First.  However, Jackson to First beyond the

bus tunnel isn’t going to be great for foot traffic.  Anton has since reported that there will be a game, but not

til the evening.  And First doesn’t

get a lot of non-game foot-traffic until you get a few blocks further north

(though it does have good foot traffic a few blocks south of Yessler).

8) If we did

not go all the way to Westlake, our preferred ending point would not be

Occidental Park, but at the triangular park on First where the pergola is.  

9) We all

agreed that the route up First, and especially the march past the market were

big advantages to going all the way to Westlake.  Anton and I talked about even going beyond Westlake on

First, so we could run alongside the market for a couple more blocks, and then

looping back to Westlake.

The main

reason we considered ending sooner than Westlake was that we wanted to be able

to take a few detours that would lengthen the march.  Twelfth is one, into the projects to the west of Broadway is

another, Hing Hay park is a third, and we might have talked about a few others

as well.

The

longest option is:

SCCC

--> Pike --> 12th --> Cherry --> Broadway --> through

Yessler Terrace --> Yessler --> Boren --> 12th -->

Jackson --> Hing Hay --> Jackson --> 1st --> Stewart

--> 4th --> Westlake. 

That one

is not outlined in any of the maps that I made and Helen sent out.  We agreed that that one was too long,

but I imagine that some of us could be convinced otherwise.  But at this point, I am not entirely

convinced by your arguments.  

We need

to resolve this soon so we can start the permit process.  One proposal is that anyone who can meets

at SCCC on Thursday or Friday evening, at 6 or 6:30, with flyers in hand, and we walk the route again.  Can you

make it either of those times, Frank? 

What about other comrades?

I cannot

do it on Friday, but I can on Thursday. 

If we decide to do it Thursday, probably the communication should be by

phone.

Comrades,

I

donâ€™t understand what is said on the maps, i.e., how is the route ending at

Westlake only 2.5 miles, and the one ending at Pioneer Square 3.0 miles? Then

you have an alternative route to Pioneer Square thatâ€™s longer, but itâ€™s listed as only 2.6 miles!

So

you must mean that the route ending at Westlake is 3.0 miles, which I think is

just right---maybe 1 hour 45 minutes at demonstration pace. Nothing. We say

that we want to use demonstrations take our anti-war politics to the people,

and this does it.

Some

other points:

I

think that ending at Westlake is better because it seems to be a little more of

a public place than Pioneer Square. Moreover, it allows us to march by the

crowded Market entrance, etc. Also, a lot of people will hike back up the hill to

Broadway after the event is over, and this will give us the opportunity to walk

with them. In fact, I was thinking that it would be good to give a call for

people to march back up the hill together during the ending rally.

Besides

Seattle May Days and the DNC, I could add more demonstrations that have been

much longer than the one we all generally agreed on, i.e., three marches from the U.W. all the way

downtown in 1970, or a MLK Day march that went all the way from Garfield High

to Othello, or others. And every one of these marches was of thousands. But you

write that: â€œWe will have less people participating in the march if it is

clearly too long,â€ when this is not clear at all!

Longer

marches (and this one is really not that long) are a little more dramatic and

memorable, and we want this to be a memorable event. Further, Iâ€™ve told some

people that we wanted this to be a demonstration that was short on

speech-making and long on marching, and had agreement that it should be. And if

we continue our political mobilization I donâ€™t think we need worry about

turning out enough people to fill the street. Anger against Obama increases by

the day, and we work to increase this anger. A three-mile anti-war

demonstration is just the beginning.

Since

four people have now consensed against our original plan, Iâ€™ll add one last

thing: How many times have we heard the cry to â€œkeep marching!â€ sent up

when the usual coalition leaders stopped marches in order to have an hour of

reformist speeches? Maybe itâ€™s because Iâ€™m older, but Iâ€™ve heard it a

lot.

Sorry

to go on and on, but I just donâ€™t get this objectionâ€¦canâ€™t fathom it, and

it makes me angry. But Iâ€™m sure weâ€™ll work it out.

Frank

I don't

agree that the original proposed route is too long. For example, it's about half

the length of the biggest march in Denver, and much shorter than the May Day

marches from St. Mary's, downtown, and on to Seattle Center. More, when you're

walking in a crowd, shouting slogans and chants, etc., time flies by in comparison

to when you're walking alone.—Fk

-----

Original Message -----

From: Helen

To: antiwar at lists.hcoop.net
Sent: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 05:44:54 +0000

(UTC)
Subject: Re: [Oct. 17 Seattle] Fwd: Import your contacts and old

email

Alex, Anton, Edwd and I walked variations of the proposed route

tonight.

We concluded that SCCC via 12th or Broadway to Jackson, to First, and

up Pine to Westlake is too far.

We will have less people participating in the

march if it is clearly 
too long. People would likely decide to be there at the

beginning 
and/or the end and the actual number marching would be lower than we

want, possibly lower than we need to go into the street.

We can of course

discuss this further, but this was the general 
consensus amongst of the four

of us.

Here are proposed routes. (Folks will argue pro and con in 
subsequent

emails.)

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